Varieties of Self Investigation: Josh Wagner

Episode Notes

Josh Wagner is a third-year neuroscience student at Duke University. He has interests in psychedelics, mystical-type experiences, and philosophy. He aspires to become a psychiatrist where he can combine all of these interests.

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Audio Bookmarks

Waking Up – 1:32
Jud Brewer addiction and cravings – 13:00
Dark night of the soul – 20:43
Schwartz – No Bad Parts – 25:51
You can’t always trust your mind – 45:05
Why it’s hard to say everything is fine – 47:00
Mystical experiences – 55:48
Psychedelic legalization – 1:03:35
Haphazard psychedelic use – 1:06:28
How hard, if at all, to push against religion – 1:17:00
Science as a complement/alternative to religion – 1:27:00
Resentment toward Catholicism – 1:25:00
The glut of modern value systems – 1:30:00
How good values might emerge on their own – 1:38:40
Our very salesy, cynical, and manipulative culture – 1:53:00
The hope for sincerity in most people – 1:55:00
David Foster Wallace – 2:05:21
What is consciousness? David Chalmers – 2:11:00
The value of uncertainty and creativity – 2:15:00
A community for people exploring this – 2:27:00

Additional Questions:

When Did “Self Investigation” Start for You?

My introduction was relatively recently. Maybe a year and a half ago, I stumbled upon Sam Harris’s work, Robert Wright, some other people. I was getting into mindfulness and Buddhist ways of thinking. But I feel like my understanding of it went back a lot further to that… I just never was really able to put it into words.

I grew up in a military family and we moved a lot. I guess what drew me to psychology and neuroscience – is I was always moving to a new place and re-establishing myself. I feel like doing that so many times repeatedly, I kind came to see the parts of myself that were conditioned and felt like I was always chasing the part that was innate.

This was my first introduction to this idea of separating – or “looking for the looker” – looking for the self. Like Doctor Vervaeke’s analogy – it’s like looking at the glasses that you’re viewing life through, for the first time. That analogy was pretty helpful for me.

It really peaked 6 or 7 years ago when I had my first mental health experience – going through some therapy and some counseling. I was beginning to understand that you can’t always trust your mind and the perceptions and the conclusions that it presents you with. And that was very eye opening.

What Is Your Experience With Meditation, Mindfulness, Contemplation of Related Philosophy, Journaling?

Being in a therapy session and talking out loud showed me… hey I’m really thinking that stuff all the time and not really realizing it. Meditation takes it a step further – you become more cognizant and are able to see the misguided or skewed perspectives that you’re developing as they come up – rather than retrospectively.

It’s not that by becoming mindful – I was instantly less anxious – it’s not that those thoughts went away. Rather, I was able to inspect these anxious or hyper self conscious thoughts as they arose. In inspecting them, I reduced their power over me.

This might make to hard for people to start meditation. I expected these thoughts might just go away – but what changes instead – is our ability to inspect them. To not identify with them.

One trap in inspecting these thoughts and feelings is to demonize and judge them. That was another pitfall I fell into along the way. But then I found if you view them compassionately, nonjudgmentally, it prevents you them from feeling negative. When you try to punish yourself from thinking, feeling, or doing something, it doesn’t achieve the goal like compassion does.

Later on I had another big experience in my life – my Mom was diagnosed with a stage 4 brain tumor. It shocked me. It put the shortness of the life into perspective for sure. I realized I needed to figure out what was going on here – with life – before I ran out of time.

I realized meditation could show me something even more fundamental about the nature of reality.

What Is Your Relationship with Science?

I have always been interested in science, going back as far as when I was catching lizards in my backyard as a 9 year old. I was dazzled by the wonders of the natural world, and loved how science sought to answer questions about it. To this day I still love science, but my perspective on it has shifted. Originally, it was my understanding that science was objective, founded on facts, and definitive in its ability to find truths. Over the course of many years spent studying science, however, I have come to see it for what it is. Science is our most concerted effort as a society for rigorously investigating questions about the nature of reality, founded on a belief in the scientific method and empiricism. All science allows us to do however, is assert when a certain hypothesis is false and weigh the evidence at hand to assess the likelihood of a given explanation. In this manner, it seems that sometimes people put too much faith in science on the basis that it is “objective” when in reality science is susceptible to the same flaws of human interpretation which populate other “truth”-seeking disciplines. At the end of the day, we can no more prove the “truth” of insights gleaned from science as we can those put out by mystics, artists, or philosophers. Moreover, there are certain questions to which science, with its need for empirical observations, has no answer. Conversely, sometimes people don’t appreciate the beauty of the framework that science offers for evaluating the validity of a proposition. The scientific method’s steep bar for evidence and stringent stipulations regarding what can be interpreted from data at hand has afforded us the definitive knowledge requisite of our advancement as a society. Thus, my love for science remains, with the understanding that science has its limitations and that there are questions to which science may not be able to provide an answer.

The World Behind the World: Consciousness, Free Will, and the Limits of Science
The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason
Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain
Determined: A Science of Life without Free Will: Sapolsky, Robert M

What Is Your Relationship With Religion?

I was raised Christian. My perspective about it has changed quite a bit. There was a time when I would have considered myself a pretty adamant about faith…

In understanding more about the natural, world, and raising these philosophical questions – I kept having more and more questions of the Christian view. There were no answers there and I had to find a new source. The view became too limited – relative to the bigger miracle of merely existing.

I still see value in religion and religious experiences – people seek out religion for a lot of the same reasons we’re talking about.

Religious ideas like martyrdom and the idea that that would get someone into heaven is something we would be better without. But it’s hard to dispel all religion without running counter to all the things we’re talking about.

Religion is often people’s way of finding unity or mystical experiences. And so, if we want to try to help more people experience these things, we should acknowledge that religious systems are among the few ways we’ve had access them.

You can make people more antagonistic by attacking their faith.

Rather than imposing a scientific worldview – we can approach people with science and say, here is what your faith might mean. Increase the meaningfulness of their experience, with science.

What Thinkers or Books Contributed to Your Current Perspective?

When I first started practice, honestly it was guided meditations in the peloton app. I had a close friend who passed away, and that was a dark period for me. I started with 10 minutes per day.

Now I’ve used the Waking Up app for quite a while – which introduced ideas of selflessness, and loving kindness meditation.

Sam Harris
- End of Faith
- Waking Up App
David Eagleman
- Incognito: The Secret Lives of the Brain
Robert Sapolsky
- Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will
Erik Hoel
- The World Behind the World: Consciousness, Free Will, and the Limits of Science
Oliver Sacks
- The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat
Johnathan Shedler
Paul Kalanithi
- When Breath Becomes Air
Sherwin Nuland
- How We Die: Reflections on Life’s Final Chapter
Viktor Frankl
- Man’s Search for Meaning

What Are Your Thoughts on the Potential of Psychedelics?

I think psychedelics crack the door on introspection. In tough circumstances, people turn to religion and spiritual practices. That’s when deeper questions really become important.

I think in the same way, psychedelics snap you out of your normal frame. You zoom out. This is this day in the context of my life. This is my life in the context of humankind. This is humankind in the context of this universe.

My experience has been dabbling a couple times with friends. But it gave me a taste of that perspective, where these other life events gave me a full dose of.

It’s like… “Dang – this is everything going on in this moment – just how big of a miracle it is just to be here.”

It’s hard for get anybody to see this just by saying it. They need to see it and feel it for themselves.

When you experience this, you just want everybody else to experience it. But it’s just impossible. Psychedelics offer an avenue for this experience.

It’s so powerful – it probably makes sense to start with something like meditation – that gives you a small way to acclimate.

Is There Anything About Your Insights You Would Wish for Others to Notice on Their Own?

The first step is helping people see and recognize their own bubble. Everyone’s had the experience of having an urge they want to fight. Or a habit they can’t kick. If you can start there, you can get to a point where you have to make that next leap – the deep dive.

Everyone lives a life full of novelty – but at a certain point everything starts to feel like different iterations of the same thing. Recognizing this might spark curiosity to dig deeper.

Conversations are helpful, because everyone has their own way of putting this stuff into words. Everyone has experiences along these lines. So in that sense, conversations are really critical.

I do think everyone has a feeling that there’s something more. And I think it’s a matter of showing them, rather than telling.

Are You Unsettled With Anything in the World?

(On immorality in the world, and building good values)

Finding a basis for morality in science – there are too many variables and too much to control for. Religion, for the most part, provides a pretty clean rulebook, but it’s too limited.

Even though science doesn’t offer a rulebook, it offers insights that can lead you on your path. I’m thinking of Robert Wright’s book Why Buddhism is True – where he cites how we can unfairly attribute more blame to enemies vs friends. Understanding our psychology like this can help balance us.

To try to reach people with these ideas (mindfulness, selflessness, etc) is hard – because it feels like the world is constantly selling a new trick or hack to better yourself or save the world.

In my experience though, this is fundamentally different than any other resource or piece of advice.

(On our cynical, salesy, manipulative culture)

I read this collection of essays Consider the Lobster by David Foster Wallace. In one essay he was following a political campaign, contrasting good leaders form good salesmen. Our world has much more of the latter.

We’ve been sold and sold and sold through mass media. It forces us to take everything with a bigger and bigger grain of salt.

What Was (Or Is) the Most Disturbing or Disorienting Aspect of Your Insights?

The most disturbing aspect of the insights I gleaned through “waking up” was just how consumed I was by jostling waves of thoughts and emotions. As someone who, for the majority of my life prior, would consider themself and anxious person, – often turning to immediate gratification as a form of escape – escaping the endless cycle of thoughts and feelings was an immeasurable relief. Such relief didn’t come instantaneously after my first time sitting down on the meditation mat, but after only a few months of practice I saw tangible results in my ability to separate myself from thoughts and feelings and no longer associate my sense of identity with them. Looking back now (about 4 years since starting my practice) I almost fail to understand how I could have been so held captive to the confines of my mind. That said, I definitely still have times when I fall back into old patterns of thought or habit. However, with the help of substantial practice, core elements of my insights remain firmly implanted in my mind, helping me recognize when I am blinded by the illusions of my perception, or “in my head”.

What Are Your Thoughts on Meaning?

Trying to find and understand meaning are questions that motivate me day in and day out, but they are also ones for which I do not have all the answers. In my own life, I have come to see that for me I find meaning in unraveling the mysteries of the universe. Understanding why and how things work all around me gives me energy, and I get excited at the thought of one day contributing new knowledge to the world. I think in some ways everyone feels this way about generating new ideas though, and so to a certain extent I don’t think what is meaningful to me is entirely unique. There are other avenues in which people find meaning, namely, helping others, creative expression, and achieving status or accomplishment, which I also believe are all important parts of leading meaningful lives. However, for me, at least at this point in my life, nothing grips me like the idea of generating new understandings for how the world works. That said, I recognize the importance of finding meaning from numerous sources so as to not exhaust one to the point of burning out. Thus, as I continue to explore finding meaning, such sources will become invaluable towards reaching personal fulfillment.

Man’s Search for Meaning: Frankl, Viktor E., Winslade, William J., Kushner, Harold S.: 9780807014271: Amazon.com: Books

What Are Your Thoughts on Death?

Death both terrifies me and gives my life purpose. Having had two close experiences with death – first with the death of one of my best friends in highschool, and second with my mother’s terminal cancer diagnosis – I have seen the pain that accompanies death. Though enduring such experiences has helped me see the beauty and necessity in death, I would be lying if I said I am not terrified of the notion of the pure nothingness that may lie beyond death. I remain open to the ideas of other possibilities lying beyond the grave, but even still the idea of this life coming to a close terrifies me. That said, I am also aware of the fact that none of this was guaranteed. The mere fact that I am existing, let alone enjoying the fruits of a 21st century Western lifestyle is a miracle in any sense of the word. As such, though the idea of my own death and the death of those around me still shakes me to my core, I maintain a sense of peace and appreciation for even getting to experience any of this at all. Additionally, the miraculousness of my existence also motivates me day in and day out to make the most of my time here. In that sense, it would be foolish for me to go around in a state of panic regarding my own morality or saddened about my own inconsequentiality in the scope of the universe. Thus, I strive on in life, unable to totally shake the fear of death’s looming presence but at the same time enlivened by death and its promise of maintaining the preciousness of life.

Has Art or Fiction Played Any Role?

Art and fiction have always possessed a magical quality that I never fully understood. For most of my life I never considered myself a creative person, though I now view that entire notion to be fallacy, and as such art never seemed to click for me. I couldn’t understand why people spent thousands of dollars on paintings which had no material difference than ones that cost ten. Put shortly, I never understood the “point” of art. I had heard over and over again how important creative expression was and I tried to incorporate it in my life, but it always just felt like a chore. I read frequently and always appreciated a good story, but I never had an eye for good writing or the deeper meaning a story might be trying to portray. My relationship with art and fiction has since changed. The turning point that sticks out in my brain is reading John Steinbeck’s East of Eden. Reading the quote “And now that you don’t have to be perfect, you can be good” sucker punched me in the gut with a deep sense of awe which would leave its mark for years after. That one experience really helped me internalize the beautiful complexity that is language and its ability to transmit one’s experience of the world. Various other books have had similar effects on me over the years: Ralph Ellison’s Invisible Man, Toni Morrison’s Song of Solomon and Beloved, anything by Kurt Vonnegut, to name a few. I am still trying to find a creative niche for myself. Fiction writing is my first attempt at carving out my niche, and so far it has been an incredibly difficult but rewarding endeavor. The sense of awe that art gives me is something I couldn’t live without and something I turn to consistently when I need to reestablish myself. Additionally, I have come to place even more value on creative expression as a means of exploring one’s consciousness much like meditation and other forms of mindfulness practice. On this note, one avenue I have been exploring recently is the realm of psychoanalysis. Although some consider it a dying field, there are many renowned practitioners still developing the field today and there are those that even claim it will make a resurgence in the coming years. Core to psychoanalytic thinking is the idea that to a certain degree we cannot really know ourselves intrinsically. Instead, there exist unconscious forces established in childhood which impact our beliefs and decisions without us knowing. Psychoanalytic theory is commonly used in the world of literary criticism as a means of explaining the intra and interpersonal dynamics found in fiction, TV, or movies. Psychoanalytic therapy involves the recipient sitting with a therapist and saying everything that comes to mind so that the patient can acknowledge the unconscious forces at play and so that the therapist can offer explanations for where such forces may be coming from. I find this idea to be very in line with that of mindfulness and meditation practice, and I believe the two schools of thought could be incorporated well. Namely, thought I have not experienced psychoanalytic therapy personally, how I see the 2 working is that mindfulness allows the individual to first acknowledge the unconscious forces at play in their lives and then psychoanalysis introduces an extra pair of eyes to analyze the workings of the unconscious mind and try to help sort out where such workings are arising.

Do You Consider Your Insights “Stabilized”?

Yes and no. Do I consider the perspective that mindfulness has given me to be the most concrete of my life to date, yes. Are there times when I fall back into old thought patterns and subsequently lose confidence in the insights I have gleaned through mindfulness, absolutely yes. I would consider myself a pretty “all or nothing” person in regards to my ability to abide by ideologies or belief systems. If I believe a certain way of living to be best or a certain outcome in life to be ideal, I am pretty good – sometimes to a fault – at being able to drop everything and change my life to fit my new beliefs. At the same time however, with enough distraction or outside encouragement, I am especially apt at finding the holes and paradoxes in such philosophies of life. As a result, my life has entailed numerous oscillations between periods of strict asceticism and comforting nihilism in which I reject all notions of truth and am pretty comfortable just living for immediate gratification. In this manner, I have diligently followed the teachings of numerous philosophers, self-help books, and spiritual leaders only to later throw them out entirely. With each subsequent loss, I have learned to be more skeptical while not closing myself altogether to change. Though it could be that the insights I have gleaned through mindfulness practice could later end up in the scrap pile, my experience with such insights has been that they are fundamentally unique. Namely, everything I have learned through mindfulness I have learned experientially. Though it sometimes took other, more articulate voices to put certain insights to words, I understand the validity of such claims through first-hand experience. For instance, though I first learned about the notion of the perception box intellectually through reading, it was something I had always been personally familiar with in my battle with irksome sugar cravings and something I came to see first hand through mindfulness practice. In this manner, though the insights I have gleaned through mindfulness practice are but another entry in a lifelong process of learning and unlearning, they are fundamentally different in how they can be proved through first-hand experience rather than reliance on dogma or belief.

What Is Your Favorite Open Mystery?

Consciousness. The fact that every part of our world –perception, emotions, sensations– are all generated by the squishy pink blob in our skulls is mind-boggling to say the least. Understanding how it all works and what can be done to alter its function has become the driving question behind my intellectual pursuits and one that I do not see drying up anytime soon.